Interviews with Creatives | Author Sophie Stern on pantsing it & making time for writing

Penguin-shortlisted debut author Sophie Stern on one sacred Friday a week, why plotting killed her second book and what unlocked her writing

This post is part of the Interviews with Creatives series

Whether you are trying to finish a first novel around a full-time job and a small child, wondering whether pantsing or plotting is your thing or just looking for the permission slip to write the way that actually works for you, this episode is full of it. Sophie is thoughtful, funny and completely honest about the messiness of the process, and she makes writing feel possible.

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Sophie Stern, Debut Author

SS: My name is Sophie Stern and I am a writer, and my debut novel just came out about 6 weeks ago, so I am freshly published. I live in Sydney with my two favourite people in the world, my husband and my son. And I also have a corporate job, which is not my creative practice.

MD: You are working around your corporate work?

SS: Yes. I work four days a week in my corporate job, and then creativity around that.

Creative Routine

MD: Yep. Do you have a routine for your creative work?

SS: I do now. So, when I first started writing my novel, I was working full-time, and was also looking after my son when he was very young. Now I have Fridays off from my day job, and so that is my precious, wonderful writing day, which I really preserve for writing, and writing only. After I drop my son off at school, I either come home, or I go to the library and I write for a few hours. I find that about 2 or 3 hours is usually my limit for good quality writing. Then in the afternoon, I’ll do research, or tinkering, or reading or maybe a bit of free writing and exercises and things like that.

MD: Do you do any writing on any of the other days, or do you just keep it all for Friday?

SS: It’s pretty much Friday now, I did originally feel like I needed to write every day, because that’s what you hear, that it should be something you do every day, but I found that that didn’t work for me at all with a busy job, and with childcare, and everything in between. What I have actually found I really love is that I have Fridays and I’m really focused on writing, but I’m still working on my novel in the spaces between. I’m thinking things over in my head, I’m having conversations with characters, I’m reading, I’m noticing things in the world, writing notes in my notes app, all those sort of things, so it’s not like it’s just the Friday, it’s more like that’s the writing day, and then I’m jumping between those days in between.

MD: Do you find that having that as a locked-in day allows the thoughts the space that they might need.

SS: Absolutely. In every other component of my life I’m a very organised person. I’m very structured. I work in a very structured job. I like spreadsheets, and so there is this freedom that comes from knowing that Friday is the writing day, and it’s almost like I’ve trained myself that that’s when my brain switches over to the creative side. And because it is this precious time, I really don’t waste it. I’m not procrastinating, it’s really from the 9 o’clock when I sit down at my computer to 3pm when I pick up my son. I have to set an alarm to make sure I don’t forget to pick up my son from school, because I do really get in this flow state so I really embrace that time and love it a lot.

Creative Process

MD: What is your process, for your writing? And this is a double whammy question, because I’m going to come back to spreadsheets, because I love spreadsheets. What is your creative process now for your writing, and is it different to your first book?

SS: Yeah, that’s a very interesting question, because I feel like it is … well, I thought it was evolving, because when I wrote my first book, it was very messy and chaotic and I didn’t know what I was doing. I was feeling my way through it. So, when I went to write my next book, I thought, I’ve done this once, I know how it all works, and I was a lot more deliberate about trying to plan it out and plot it out. That just didn’t work at all. It felt almost dead on arrival. There was no spark or joy in it, and I was really struggling. And it was almost like I needed the struggle, I needed to work my way into it. I abandoned that completely and took one very small piece from that draft I was working on and just started again. I’m now in the messy, chaotic, totally pantsing it, routine again. Yay!

MD: I love pantsing. It’s my favourite way of writing, too.

SS: Yeah.

MD: It is so interesting that you say that it was feeling really dead. With the one I’m working on, I had been away with screenwriters, so I mapped and plotted it all out. It felt like it was the right thing to do, and it just It killed it for me.

SS: Yeah, that was exactly what I did, too. I had all the little palm cards sort of spaced out, and I had the arcs, and I thought that, you know, I’ve cracked it. This is gonna be super easy, and it it wasn’t alive. It wasn’t fun, so I’m really enjoying being back in my pantsing.

MD: So what changed for you from the first one to this one?

SS: I think a lot of it is confidence knowing that I have done it before, and knowing that it is this messy, chaotic process. Embracing that and enjoying that a lot more, seeing how many iterations you go through to get to the finished product, I think, is quite comforting, in a way, because when you’re first writing, and you have this enormous gap between the absolute vomit that comes out in that first draft, at least in my case. It’s just getting mess out of my head and trying to form some sort of shape out of it. But I think that’s the fun bit as well. That’s when you’re forming these ideas and picking at things and following leads. Now that I know that it does take time, and it is part of the process that you’re finding the idea as you write it. Now I’m just enjoying it. Now I’m really embracing it and not putting as much pressure as I was when I was writing the first one.

MD: Tell me about your spreadsheeting, because I love it. I spreadsheet everything. I’m in Europe at the moment. It’s a spreadsheet.

SS: Love it.

MD: Each manuscript I write has its own spreadsheet. Everything I do goes into a spreadsheet. So, tell me about your spreadsheet, and do you use your spreadsheets for your writing?

SS: Yes, so I use spreadsheets a lot in my personal life, sort of childcare in particular, school holidays. There’s a day mapped out for every single school holiday day. In terms of writing, for my first novel in particular, which was a dual timeline novel, from two points of view and over a span of about 20 years, I had a spreadsheet where I really needed to track every single year the age of both of the characters, the sort of key points, and give that bird’s eye view. So, that’s really where I use the spreadsheet for the first novel. Something I just started doing, actually, in the second one, which is something I picked up from my friend Josh, is even though I’m not planning forward, is using the spreadsheet to sort of plan backwards. So looking at what I’ve written so far, and sort of roughly mapping that out and writing notes to myself as I go along. So, the sort of reverse outline, in a way, and I’m finding that is actually really helpful to keep track, particularly because I do only write on Fridays. It sort of gets me up to speed quite quickly with, oh … okay, I was just finishing this particular scene, and I wrote a note to myself, why don’t we try this next time, or let’s come back to this.

MD: So leaving notes for yourself, basically.

SS: Yeah, it’s sort of like a trail of breadcrumbs.

MD: You know, I’m smiling quite widely, because I do that as well.

SS: Oh, okay.

MD: I drop it into the spreadsheet to say, this is what it was trying to do, and it just helps me to then look at it in the bigger picture.

SS: Yeah. Yeah. exactly. And actually, that reminds me that when I was doing the really big revision of my first novel, the spreadsheet really came in handy, just tracking every single scene, every single chapter, asking: what’s the purpose of this, what’s the tension point? What’s the question it’s asking? What’s it leading to? Particularly because it was moving between past and present, just really trying to make it work. in various arcs that I had to pull together.

MD: I think they are very useful with dual timelines, because one of my manuscripts is a dual timeline, and knowing what day is what, as well, is super useful, and how old they are.

SS: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, and all the little things that trip you up. You’re like, oh, okay, they would have left university by then, but suddenly they’re in high school, or, you know, all those little details that you don’t necessarily pick up when you’re just reading it as a text.

Creative Inspiration

MD: Sophie, can you tell me from where do you get your inspiration?

SS: It’s one of those things that sounds a bit weird, but a lot of it is just images coming to me. So, with the first book, it was really an image of a house that stuck with me, and this idea of a house on a cliff. I feel like once I have a bit of a sense of an image or a vibe, it’s almost like the whole world becomes this scavenger hunt, where you’re pulling ideas and snips of dialogue, or things you’re reading, or things you’re watching, things you’re seeing, and all of those, pull together, and they come into the book somehow. So the strands, I guess, of inspiration. I also just love reading. I read a lot, but also I find other art forms really useful and inspiring as well, going to the art gallery, watching movies, because you can still get ideas that are very applicable to writing. But there’s less of a sense of comparison in a lot of ways. It sort of frees you up. I also come from a very musical family. Both of my parents went to the Conservatorium of Music, so that background and classical music, in particular, and sort of structure, rhythm, and sound is something I use quite a lot. I create playlists for all of my writing, and I use music to get me into the mood as well for writing.

MD: Did that upbringing of having both of your parents as musicians influence you in any way into your writing?

SS: It probably influenced me in the opposite way, in that my parents were very worried about me going into a creative career in a lot of ways because it’s a bit more precarious. But it also made my whole childhood very imaginative and creative, and it was always the focus. Music and reading, I think, were the two things that, if we were doing it, we weren’t disturbed, and so, I’m sure that has, influenced me in a lot of ways.

MD: I always wonder about whether people who have grown up in creative families are more likely to see that creativity is just a part of living. That’s what we do. Is there a real difference for you in your working life to your writing life?

SS: It’s chalk and cheese. I used to be quite hung up on that, in feeling like I needed to have a day job, quote-unquote, that was more aligned to me, creatively. But in the last few years, I’ve actually found a lot of freedom in having a job that’s quite distinct, because it uses a totally different part of my brain. It gives me a lot of other things as well. It gives me stability, it gives me friendships, it gives me structure. And creativity gets to be something that’s really joyful, and this bonus thing, so I now have embraced having both of these components of my life. I think, also, I’m really now into the idea of the good enough job, that you don’t need to get everything. From your job, that you can get certain things from a job, and then certain things from your hobbies and your other activities, and they can sort of coexist, and that makes up a meaningful life.

MD: Yeah, I agree. I can’t remember which person it was that I interviewed, but they talked about how having that life outside of writing actually just feeds their writing. And that we need to kind of live in the world around us.

SS: Absolutely, and I think having that friction, going out into the world, and coming across people you wouldn’t necessarily when you’re working in an office job, all of that feeds in. That’s character, that’s conflict, and that’s really good stuff.

Creative Wisdom

MD: If you were to be chatting with someone who was early on in their career, or was wanting to dip their toe into writing, or maybe was stuck, what advice would you want to share with them? What wisdom?

SS: The wisdom that really unlocked writing for me was something that the author Rumaam Alam said on a podcast that I listened to, no one’s going to give you permission to write. No one’s going to give you an invitation, so stop waiting for it. You have to make the time, and you might have to sacrifice other things in your life. You might have to not go to the gym, or clean your house, or see your friends, but you have to take that time, because no one’s going to hand it to you on a plate. That was a real light bulb moment for me because I’d always had this sense that I should be writing, that I need to write, that I have to write, but it was just not something I prioritised, because there’s always something else that feels more important.

Writing can feel optional, but you have to make it important in your life.

So that would be my advice.

MD: I love that advice, especially because I hear this from a lot of writers that they can’t find the time to write, and you have to make it, because you’re not going to find it. You actually have to make it a priority.

Creative Home

MD: Tell me, what is home for you and your creative work? What does that mean for you?

SS: I am lucky now that I have my own space to write at home. A couple of years ago, I was writing in libraries a lot, which are probably my second home I would say in terms of writing. Now I have my own dedicated space, which I love because I’m a big potterer and I love pottering around my room and rearranging it and that helps me think. So that’s the physical home. I think the mental home is when I’m in that space where I am thinking about a new story and it’s all starting to come together and it’s this really exciting period where it’s all possibility. It feels almost like you’re living in between two worlds, where you’ve got this imaginary world and your real world and they’re coexisting and you’re pulling pieces from each. That is the best space to be in. I love that space. I feel like I’m in that space at the moment with my second book. I’m really enjoying it. Once you’ve got this, the foundations, it’s just picking the decorations that go on the walls, that’s the fun bit.

MD: I love that so much. This next book that you’re writing, is it in the same genre as your first? And maybe just tell us a little bit about what is your first book?

SS: My book is What is Left for Us. It is a modern family drama about two sisters from Bondi who haven’t spoken in ten years and they inherit their grandmother’s house and are forced to confront the sort of secrets and betrayals that tore them apart. My second book is, in some ways, also along those lines. It’s very much about relationships and the interior lives of people. But I am more in a coming-of-age world, rather than these women in this novel who are in their late 30s. I had hoped when I was writing my second one, I was really determined that it would be a single point of view, linear plot, and again, that hasn’t worked out that way. I’ve got at least three points of view now that are talking to me, so, yeah. But it’s fun. I think there’s always a story you think you’re going to write, and there’s a story that it actually is, so I’m just playing around with that and having fun with it.

MD: The joy of being a pantser.

SS: Yeah, exactly.

MD: We get to be surprised about, oh, what? You’ve turned up as well? I have to write you in.

SS: Exactly, yeah.

MD: What do the plotters do when that happens for them? They go, no, no, no?

SS: I wonder. I am slightly jealous that the plotters get to have spreadsheets, though.

MD: Oh, yes. This one that I’m writing now, I did plot out in a spreadsheet, and there’s formulas, But I got about ten scenes in, and I’m like, oh, that’s… no, I don’t want to do that next thing.

SS: Yay!

MD: I wanted to do something else.

SS: Yeah, exactly right. You’re like, but I want to go that way.

MD: Yeah, so I’m still kind of using that formulaic spreadsheet where it’s actually doing some calculations, like, this is how much you have of Act 1, this is…

SS: Oh, wow. That’s something.

MD: You can spend a lot of time on these things, though, and not do the writing. Thank you so much for joining me today, Sophie, and links to your book, and where people can find you will be in the show notes. And the title of the book again is…

SS: What is left for us

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Connect with Sophie Stern

• Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/sophie.e.stern/
• Substack: Creative Practice Newsletter
• Website: http://sophiestern.com.au
• Book: What is Left For Us https://www.penguin.com.au/books/what-is-left-for-us-9781761354441

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This interview was originally published on the Creative Momentum with Meg podcast. If you haven’t discovered the podcast, go have a listen for more interviews with creatives talking about their creative process, routine and inspiration.

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